有关反击Apache的方法

曲清

看到很多相关的资料 不错
小曲在这里更了解 AH-64

pfg1group

一般上,APACHE所用的, 是狼群战术. 并且, 有一点很重要的, 就是很多国家里, APACHE是隶属陆军部队, 很明显作战使用做支援火炮.

APACHE通常不是单独行动的. APACHE的作战战术就像狼群或是某些动物猎物一样.每一架机负责不一样的任务.

其中一架机担任领导, 接收讯息并把讯息传给友机. 另外同时还有几架机担任戒备任务. 又由于和陆军并肩作战, 地面上的地面部队有必要先铲除临近的任何有可能防空火炮. 这样APACHE才能真正发挥其火力.

当然, 前面大家所提起的STINGER 或是任何SAM, 在一对一的能力下, 都有能力把APACHE给打下来. 但是在战术上要把APACHE打下来. 个人觉得最重要是靠 -> SURPRISE ELEMENT. 另外, 就算地面防空能够把一架APACHE打下来, 也暴露了自己的位置, 如果不能够有效逃出地面部队的围剿, 等于死路一条.更有可能把手上的防空武器落在敌人手上, 敌人利用泄漏的参数, 那么, 己方的地面防空武器就等于废铁了.


老实说,APACHE这种武装直升机真的不容易打下来, 要不然, 为什么当年解放军拿出那么多资源来研究三打?
1. 打航空母舰
2. 打武装直升机
3. 打隐形战机

leevihua

原帖由 pfg1group 于 3-12-2005 12:03 AM 发表
一般上,APACHE所用的, 是狼群战术. 并且, 有一点很重要的, 就是很多国家里, APACHE是隶属陆军部队, 很明显作战使用做支援火炮.

APACHE通常不是单独行动的. APACHE的作战战术就像狼群或是某些动物猎物一样.每一 ...

pflgroup兄提供的網站還有很多簡明易懂的WAR TACTICS/TECHNOLOGY ANIMATION,大家一定要去看!

我想提問一個問題: APACHE在空曠處的確有很強的火力,但如果是在城市戰中,其行動會否被鋼骨水泥的建築物所阻礙而發揮受制?

gsck

原帖由 leevihua 于 3-12-2005 09:57 AM 发表



pflgroup兄提供的網站還有很多簡明易懂的WAR TACTICS/TECHNOLOGY ANIMATION,大家一定要去看!

我想提問一個問題: APACHE在空曠處的確有很強的火力,但如果是在城市戰中,其行動會否被鋼骨水泥的建築物所阻礙 ...

我觉得肯定会受到限制。。

除非全部建筑物都摧毁。。

则。。

何来“限制”？

steven268h

通常武装直升机内都会佩带热象仪器~ 所以在限制上来说~ 非常的“微妙”~ 因为武直可以在低空上逗留和进行搜索等工作~ 平面上的阻碍可说是起不了多大的作用~ 若是普通机枪来扫射直升机面上的防弹装甲来说~ 起的作用不大（但是7.62MM以上的弹头就另当别论）~ 若是在城市中~ 所谓的电线杆等东西~ 可是直升机的限制物~ 不过` 当到了如宽阔的北京街（举例）~ 可以说是“通畅无阻”~ 若是如香港般的街道~ 那就“等死”~

gsck

依照这样的情况来说。。

在很多亚洲国家的城市战都不能采用武装直升机来做火力支援咯。。

pfg1group

原帖由 dinoo 于 1-12-2005 10:58 AM 发表
Apache 巡航速度145mile/hour，约64.44 m/s;
stinger大概在2.2倍音速，估计750 m/s，相信其他国家造的便携飞弹也不会差太多。

武装直升机对付坦克的确是很厉害的杀手，不过个人觉得它的作用因为受到不断进步的 ...

不知道你的资料有误还是其他原因.

声音速度在25摄氏为300m/s.
2.2倍音速应该为= 2.2*300 = 660 m/s.

750m/s =  2.5倍音速.

pfg1group

原帖由 steven268h 于 3-12-2005 12:00 PM 发表
通常武装直升机内都会佩带热象仪器~ 所以在限制上来说~ 非常的“微妙”~ 因为武直可以在低空上逗留和进行搜索等工作~ 平面上的阻碍可说是起不了多大的作用~ 若是普通机枪来扫射直升机面上的防弹装甲来说~ 起的作用 ...

STEVENS兄说得没有错.
但是有一点我想朋友们所要知道的就是, 这种武装直升机所用的战术. 我觉得这一点很重要. 也发觉到好像很多朋友们都忽略了这一环.

这种直升机因为其长时间暴露在敌人地面防空炮火的危险的情况. 通常不是两三架一起出动, 而是几十架一起出动, 在还没有approach target area以前, 直升机中队会派出配有长弓雷达的去观测敌方, while the rest利用地形来掩饰. 发现,探测并确定敌方火力和数量以后, 领导机利用其强大资料输送链和长弓(longbow)控制雷达, 分配工作, 包括戒备, 主力火力, 支援火力, 并分配目标给友机来达到打击目标的目的.

另外, 楼上有几位谈到在FUBUA中运用APACHE.虽然在实战中好像没有个案. 但是个人认为不太适合. 主要原因, 第一, 最重要的, 依靠其战术, APACHE低飞并利用地形来配合, 达到匿踪效果. 但是在城市中低飞很危险, 除了要小心电线以外, 再搞建筑中或是在地面有密集防空导弹的话, 根本进行不了回避和疏散, 混乱情况下, 更有可能撞击友机甚至是建筑. 后果不堪设想. 第二, 如果按照其传统打击对象, FIBUA中最禁忌就是利用重型坦克, 会不会觉得好像大材小用讷? 第三, 在FIBUA 中, 四周围如果都有高耸建筑物, 长弓根本看不到任何东西, 形同瞎掉眼睛一样. 第四, 在FIBUA中所需要的空中支援火力, 是掩护地面部队, 或是扫荡残余分子, 并不需要火力强猛的武装直升机.

[ 本帖最后由 pfg1group 于 5-12-2005 08:35 PM 编辑 ]

gsck

Power and Flight
At its core, an Apache works pretty much the same way as any other helicopter. It has two rotors that spin several blades. A blade is a tilted airfoil, just like an airplane wing. As it speeds through the air, each blade generates lift. (See How Airplanes Work to find out how lift is generated.)



The main rotor, attached to the top of the helicopter, spins four 20-foot (6-meter) blades. The pilot maneuvers the helicopter by adjusting a swash plate mechanism. The swash plate changes each blade's pitch (tilt) to increase lift. Adjusting the pitch equally for all blades lifts the helicopter straight up and down. Changing the pitch as the blades make their way around the rotation cycle creates uneven lift, causing the helicopter to tilt and fly in a particular direction. (See How Helicopters Work for a full explanation.)

As the main rotor spins, it exerts a rotation force on the entire helicopter. The rear rotor blades work against this force -- they push the tail boom in the opposite direction. By changing the pitch of the rear blades, the pilot can rotate the helicopter in either direction or keep it from turning at all. An Apache has double tail rotors, each with two blades.


The rotor assembly on an AH-64A Apache

The newest Apache sports twin General Electric T700-GE-701C turboshaft engines, boasting about 1,700 horsepower each. Each engine turns a drive shaft, which is connected to a simple gear box. The gear box shifts the angle of rotation about 90 degrees and passes the power on to the transmission. The transmission transmits the power to the main rotor assembly and a long shaft leading to the tail rotor. The rotor is optimized to provide much greater agility than you find in a typical helicopter.

The core structure of each blade consists of five stainless steel arms, called spars, which are surrounded by a fiberglass skeleton. The trailing edge of each blade is covered with a sturdy graphite composite material, while the leading edge is made of titanium. The titanium is strong enough to withstand brushes with trees and other minor obstacles, which is helpful in "nap-of-the-earth" flying (zipping along just above the contours of the ground). Apaches need to fly this way to sneak up on targets and to avoid attack. The rear tail wing helps stabilize the helicopter during nap-of-the-earth flight as well as during hovering.


The Apache's blades and wings detach for easier transport.

You could say, based on all this information, that the Apache is just a high-end helicopter. But that would be like calling James Bond's Aston Martin just a high-end car. As we'll see in the next few sections, the Apache's advanced weaponry puts it in an entirely different class.

Who uses the Apache, and who makes it?
The Apache is the primary attack helicopter in the U.S. arsenal. Other countries, including the United Kingdom, Israel and Saudi Arabia, have also added Apaches to their fleet.
The first series of Apaches, developed by Hughes Helicopters in the 1970s, went into active service in 1985. The U.S. military is gradually replacing this original design, known as the AH-64A Apache, with the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow. In 1984, McDonnell Douglas purchased Hughes Helicopters, and in 1997, Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas. Today, Boeing manufactures Apache helicopters, and the UK-based GKN Westland Helicopters manufacturers the English version of the Apache, the WAH-64.

gsck

Hellfire Missiles
The Apache's chief function is to take out heavily armored ground targets, such as tanks and bunkers. To inflict this kind of damage, you need some heavy fire power, and to do it from a helicopter, you need an extremely sophisticated targeting system.
The Apache's primary weapon, the Hellfire missile, meets these demands. Each missile is a miniature aircraft, complete with its own guidance computer, steering control and propulsion system. The payload is a high-explosive, copper-lined-charge warhead powerful enough to burn through the heaviest tank armor in existence.


An Apache fires two Hellfire missiles in a training exercise.

The Apache carries the missiles on four firing rails attached to pylons mounted to its wings. There are two pylons on each wing, and each pylon can support four missiles, so the Apache can carry as many as 16 missiles at a time. Before launching, each missile receives instructions directly from the helicopter's computer. When the computer transmits the fire signal, the missile sets off the propellant. Once the burning propellant generates about 500 pounds of force, the missile breaks free of the rail. As the missile speeds up, the force of acceleration triggers the arming mechanism. When the missile makes contact with the target, an impact sensor sets off the warhead.

The original Hellfire design uses a laser guidance system to hit its mark. In this system, the Apache gunner aims a high-intensity laser beam at the target (in some situations, ground forces might operate the laser instead). The laser pulses on and off in a particular coded pattern.


Each rail set holds four Hellfire missiles.

Before giving the firing signal, the Apache computer tells the missile's control system the specific pulse pattern of the laser. The missile has a laser seeker on its nose that detects the laser light reflecting off the target. In this way, the missile can see where the target is. The guidance system calculates which way the missile needs to turn in order to head straight for the reflected laser light. To change course, the guidance system moves the missile's flight fins. This is basically the same way an airplane steers.



The laser-guided Hellfire system is highly effective, but it has some significant drawbacks:

• Cloud cover or obstacles can block the laser beam so it never makes it to the target.
  If the missile passes through a cloud, it can lose sight of the target.
  The helicopter (or a ground targeting crew) has to keep the laser fixed on the target until the missile makes contact. This means the helicopter has to be out in the open, vulnerable to attack.
  
• The Hellfire II, used in Apache Longbow helicopters, corrects these flaws. Instead of a laser-seeking system, the missile has a radar seeker. The helicopter's radar locates the target, and the missiles zero in on it. Since radio waves aren't obscured by clouds or obstacles, the missile is more likely to find its target. Since it doesn't have to keep the laser focused on the target, the helicopter can fire the missile and immediately find cover.
  

太空豬

Apache 的全機體可以抵擋12.7mm 子彈的射擊（射程不清楚），引擎部分甚至可以抵擋 23 mm 炮彈的射擊。阿富汗的 anaconda operation 裏阿帕奇直昇機被 RPG 擊中後仍能返航，可見它的防護力是多麼的強。

在城市作戰，像索馬里那樣，RPG 綑綁手榴彈來打阿帕奇大概是最好的方法了。

pfg1group

在苏联1980攻打阿富汗期间. 苏联也有动用武装直升机.
当时苏联利用火炮把阿富汗人赶进山谷中, 再利用武装直升机扫荡,导致当时的民兵一度兵败如山.

但是, 有美国人在背后支持的阿富汗人, 也就利用了这种战术的弱点(没有资料链, 没有地面部队掩护武装直升机-> 用刺针/STINGER.

由于该区很多山洞,并且相连相通. 当有苏联直升机到来时, 民兵首先先用小型武器, 例如步枪和RPG, 引诱直升机前往扫荡. 当直升机前往该方向时, 民兵们马上躲进山洞中, 但是, 同样时间, 另外一个洞口却跑出民兵使用STINGER来把该直升机打掉. 虽然苏联曾经尝试利用多架机一起进行扫荡. 但是由于山洞太多, 民兵神出鬼没, 苏联武装直升机在阿富汗战争中只有在早期尝到甜头, 过后则兵败如山了. 而这场战争也导致刺针一举成名. 所以, 要把武装直升机并非不可能, 而最重要的, 是战术上的使用和发挥.

Craven83

原帖由 太空豬 于 5-12-2005 07:59 PM 发表
Apache 的全機體可以抵擋12.7mm 子彈的射擊（射程不清楚），引擎部分甚至可以抵擋 23 mm 炮彈的射擊。阿富汗的 anaconda operation 裏阿帕奇直昇機被 RPG 擊中後仍能返航，可見它的防護力是多麼的強。

在城市作 ...

是全数安全返航，但是8架里面有超过5架因此报废了。。。

Craven83

原帖由 pfg1group 于 5-12-2005 07:18 PM 发表


STEVENS兄说得没有错.
但是有一点我想朋友们所要知道的就是, 这种武装直升机所用的战术. 我觉得这一点很重要. 也发觉到好像很多朋友们都忽略了这一环.

这种直升机因为其长时间暴露在敌人地面防空炮火的危 ...

个人认同pfg1group兄的说法，APACHE并不适合在FIBUA中使用，而且也没有这个必要，APACHE主要针对重型装甲车而设计的，在FIBUA中应该没有机会使用，如果真的使用的话也没有必要出动到APACHE，因为到了最后敌方也只是重复当年俄罗斯装甲部队在车臣的悲剧而已。。。想象一下从四面八的建筑物里放飞来的RPG和反坦克导弹已经够烦的了，还要加上还有无数的地雷和路障等。。。

[ 本帖最后由 Craven83 于 6-12-2005 10:43 AM 编辑 ]

Craven83

原帖由 pfg1group 于 5-12-2005 10:37 PM 发表
在苏联1980攻打阿富汗期间. 苏联也有动用武装直升机.
当时苏联利用火炮把阿富汗人赶进山谷中, 再利用武装直升机扫荡,导致当时的民兵一度兵败如山.

但是, 有美国人在背后支持的阿富汗人, 也就利用了这种战术 ...

其实APACHE的设计上真的有点矛盾，APACHE是低飞并利用地形来配合, 达到匿踪效果，但是其长弓雷达又必须要宽敞的空间才能发挥到效用，真的令人费解。。。

pfg1group

原帖由 Craven83 于 6-12-2005 10:48 AM 发表


其实APACHE的设计上真的有点矛盾，APACHE是低飞并利用地形来配合, 达到匿踪效果，但是其长弓雷达又必须要宽敞的空间才能发挥到效用，真的令人费解。。。

其实没有什么矛盾。
匿踪效果是在抵达目标地带，在发射炮火以前所需要的。
而长弓系统则是在抵达目标去后，用来探测敌人装甲目标的数量。

Craven83

可是这样不就暴露了自己的位置了吗？

曲清

看来你们真的将APACHE 一一 的公开出来 希望不会有 恐怖分子 看到不然改天 又不懂会有多少 辆被打下

现在考虑将这篇文章 入 精华

steven268h

原帖由 Craven83 于 9-12-2005 10:32 AM 发表
可是这样不就暴露了自己的位置了吗？

Apache得雷达可在他们到达直接就将敌人给探测出来~ 当然拉~ 他们也会面对暴露的危险~ 但是对于他们当但的空中支援火力来说~ 这项任务可说是胜任有余~ 若是突袭和长驱直入~ 我看这个和神风自杀队没有什么分别了~

pfg1group

原帖由 Craven83 于 9-12-2005 10:32 AM 发表
可是这样不就暴露了自己的位置了吗？

其实并没有什么大问题.
如果你只是比较比较单兵携带防空导弹射程和长弓雷达扫描程式,还有就是友军地面部队的掩护. 这种短时间暴露自己的位置并不会有很大麻烦.