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 楼主| 发表于 16-1-2014 11:12 PM | 显示全部楼层
leoksting81 发表于 16-1-2014 12:55 AM
那些雕刻来来去去都是耶稣像, 圣母像, 圣家三口, Gabriel天使长而已。
其他的怕只有去欧洲旧时代的才 ...

这些东西看看是没问题,但是很多人都把它捧上天,当偶像来追,当神来敬拜。
那就使上帝很不高兴了。
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 楼主| 发表于 16-1-2014 11:17 PM | 显示全部楼层
leoksting81 发表于 16-1-2014 01:01 AM
的确,天主教有转祷这一项,
新教是去掉了。
至于新教, 他们的圣名,应该也是洗礼时才取的。
不过,我不清楚这些圣名名单从何而来。
也许,新教徒可以解释交流一下。
没有这回事。
天主教是圣物崇拜主义。好一点的东西就是圣。这有点追求偶像的味道,所以新教是绝对弃绝这门主义的。
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发表于 16-1-2014 11:20 PM | 显示全部楼层
cikmekyee 发表于 16-1-2014 10:42 PM
一开始我们就不对了。
我们把人给神化了,然后又把神给人格化了。
1. 把人给神化了。

我看不懂
天主教的教导是这样的?
本帖最后由 shengwei95 于 16-1-2014 11:49 PM 编辑

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 楼主| 发表于 16-1-2014 11:20 PM | 显示全部楼层
shengwei95 发表于 16-1-2014 01:33 AM
在新教里,圣名(洋名)是不一定要取的(例如我就没有取圣名)。
新教里也没有所谓封圣这样的东西,所以 ...

是的,我有回复过了,
天主教是圣物崇拜主义。
也是修道主义。
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 楼主| 发表于 16-1-2014 11:21 PM | 显示全部楼层
shengwei95 发表于 16-1-2014 11:20 PM
我看不懂
天主教的教导室这样的?

你再说说看是怎样的?我来看对不对。
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 楼主| 发表于 16-1-2014 11:32 PM | 显示全部楼层
美丽旅程 发表于 16-1-2014 05:07 PM
我还没有相信耶稣基督之前,看到膜拜的雕像是持着信则有不信则无的观点的。当我和家人信了耶稣之后,我儿 ...
我儿子就能够察验出哪个雕像有没有灵体附着的。
任何物体或雕像都是死的,但是经过人类用意志力把邪神请来的话,这些雕像就会显灵了。
但是请来的神不一定就是你要的神,比方说你安了一个观音相,每天点香念经请他保佑。这时如果显灵时,就是有灵体附着了。
但那不一定是观音,很可能是其他的邪神。
说玩碟仙就好,有些人运气不好,来了个恶神,
所谓请神容易送神难。这时他们的恶梦就开始了
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发表于 16-1-2014 11:52 PM | 显示全部楼层
cikmekyee 发表于 16-1-2014 02:56 PM
哦,我说上帝是会吃醋的神是客气的说法,
圣经上说的就比较严重一点,上帝是会妒忌的神或上帝是忌邪的神 ...

原來你不是天主教徒。
神忌邪才對,
不是吃醋啦。。。
你要講清楚嗎。
兩者的意思不一樣。。。

神忌"邪"對吧。。。
有看到"邪"嗎?
你講聖人邪嗎?
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发表于 16-1-2014 11:56 PM | 显示全部楼层
1。天主教的圣人像,并不是为了被膜拜而造的,
2。在天主教里除了圣经的传承,更有教会流传下来的传统。

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发表于 17-1-2014 12:00 AM | 显示全部楼层
cikmekyee 发表于 16-1-2014 11:32 PM
任何物体或雕像都是死的,但是经过人类用意志力把邪神请来的话,这些雕像就会显灵了。
但是请来的神不一 ...

不好批评他人宗教。
本质上,各大宗教都有来由的。
一神教完全否认了其他神存在,
但不表示全人类都信这一套。
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发表于 17-1-2014 12:02 AM | 显示全部楼层
alpio 发表于 16-1-2014 11:56 PM
1。天主教的圣人像,并不是为了被膜拜而造的,
2。在天主教里除了圣经的传承,更有教会流传下来的传统。  ...

你是对的。
就像华人为何庆农历新年,为何不庆祝公历一样。
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发表于 17-1-2014 12:11 AM | 显示全部楼层
美丽旅程 发表于 16-1-2014 11:05 PM
一般上基督教会的标志就是十字架,没有别的了。
就好像医院,红十字会,救护等机构以十字作为标志那样。 ...

谢谢美丽旅程的答案。
“基督徒从来不拜十字架”
虽然,十字架在教堂的正中央。

公教徒的答案和你一样,
虽然,圣人像在我们面前, 并不代表我们崇拜那些雕刻。
我们是追随那些圣人侍奉主的精神。
很多圣人都是殉道为主的,

如果其他人用枪指著我们, 叛教就可以免死。
我们会怎么做呢?

另外, 偶像可不是指雕刻而已, 包括壁画,浮雕,物件都是。
伊斯兰教目前最去偶像化。。

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发表于 17-1-2014 12:14 AM | 显示全部楼层
cikmekyee 发表于 16-1-2014 11:20 PM
是的,我有回复过了,
天主教是圣物崇拜主义。
也是修道主义。

那可不一定,
天主教内的休会之多,
各种修行主义是很多的啦。
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发表于 17-1-2014 09:12 AM | 显示全部楼层
cikmekyee 发表于 13-1-2014 02:05 PM
呵呵!谢谢您的祝福,你也必得到应有的酬报。
过去我也常上网看hardcore的,现在看膩了就很少上hardcore ...

你讲什么 hardcore 啊
我只是说这位神父的想法很激进一下~

照片不错看
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发表于 17-1-2014 09:30 AM | 显示全部楼层
cikmekyee 发表于 16-1-2014 10:56 PM
哦,我说上帝是会吃醋的神是客气的说法,
圣经上说的就比较严重一点,上帝是会妒忌的神或上帝是忌邪的神 ...

我觉得吃醋是人的性格- 这个世界因为吃醋而发生的纷争、悲剧很多
所以我认为吃醋是人的罪性之一

说神会吃醋,就是人格化神,等于说神也有罪性,那就不对了

你说是不是?朋友

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发表于 17-1-2014 09:35 AM | 显示全部楼层
美丽旅程 发表于 16-1-2014 11:05 PM
一般上基督教会的标志就是十字架,没有别的了。
就好像医院,红十字会,救护等机构以十字作为标志那样。 ...

新教应该学回教,要跟就跟完,100%去偶像化


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发表于 17-1-2014 09:46 AM | 显示全部楼层
关于偶像之纷争,我的看法就引用这位朋友的文章:

MAN IS AN amphibian who lives simultaneously in two worlds - the given and the homemade, the world of matter, life and consciousness and the world of symbols. In our thinking we make use of a great variety of symbol-systems - linguistic, mathematical, pictorial, musical, ritualistic. Without such symbol-systems we should have no art, no science, no law, no philosophy, not so much as the rudiments of civilization: in other words, we should be animals.

Symbols, then, are indispensable. But symbols - as the history of our own and every other age makes so abundantly clear - can also be fatal. Consider, for example, the domain of science on the one hand, the domain of politics and religion on the other. Thinking in terms of, and acting in response to, one set of symbols, we have come, in some small measure, to understand and control the elementary forces of nature. Thinking in terms of and acting in response to, another set of symbols, we use these forces as instruments of mass murder and collective suicide. In the first case the explanatory symbols were well chosen, carefully analysed and progressively adapted to the emergent facts of physical existence. in the second case symbols originally ill-chosen were never subjected to thoroughgoing analysis and never re-formulated so as to harmonize with the emergent facts of human existence. Worse still, these misleading symbols were everywhere treated with a wholly unwarranted respect, as though, in some mysterious way, they were more real than the realities to which they referred. In the contexts of religion and politics, words are not regarded as standing, rather inadequately, for things and events; on the contrary, things and events are regarded as particular illustrations of words. Up to the present symbols have been used realistically only in those fields which we do not feel to be supremely important. In every situation involving our deeper impulses we have insisted on using symbols, not merely unrealistically, but idolatrously, even insanely. The result is that we have been able to commit, in cold blood and over long periods of time, acts of which the brutes are capable only for brief moments and at the frantic height of rage, desire or fear. Because they use and worship symbols, men can become idealists; and, being idealists, they can transform the animal's intermittent greed into the grandiose imperialisms of a Rhodes or a J. P. Morgan; the animal's intermittent love of bullying into Stalinism or the Spanish Inquisition; the animal's intermittent attachment to its territory into the calculated frenzies of nationalism. Happily, they can also transform the animal's intermittent kindliness into the lifelong charity of an Elizabeth Fry or a Vincent de Paul; the animal's intermittent devotion to its mate and its young into that reasoned and persistent co-operation which, up to the present, has proved strong enough to save the world from the consequences of the other, the disastrous kind of idealism. Will it go on being able to save the world? The question cannot be answered. All we can say is that, with the idealists of nationalism holding the A-bomb, the odds in favour of the idealists of co-operation and charity have sharply declined.

Even the best cookery book is no substitute for even the worst dinner. The fact seems sufficiently obvious. And yet, throughout the ages, the most profound philosophers, the most learned and acute theologians have constantly fallen into the error of identifying their purely verbal constructions with facts, or into the yet more enormous error of imagining that symbols are somehow more real than what they stand for. Their word-worship did not go without protest. "Only the spirit," said St. Paul, "gives life; the letter kills." "And why," asks Eckhart, "why do you prate of God? Whatever you say of God is untrue." At the other end of the world the author of one of the Mahayana sutras affirmed that "the truth was never preached by the Buddha, seeing that you have to realize it within yourself". Such utterances were felt to be profoundly subversive, and respectable people ignored them. The strange idolatrous over-estimation of words and emblems continued unchecked. Religions declined; but the old habit of formulating creeds and imposing belief in dogmas persisted even among the atheists.

In recent years logicians and semanticists have carried out a very thorough analysis of the symbols, in terms of which men do their thinking. Linguistics has become a science, and one may even study a subject to which the late Benjamin Whorf gave the name of meta-linguistics. All this is greatly to the good; but it is not enough. Logic and semantics, linguistics and meta-linguistics - these are purely intellectual disciplines. They analyse the various ways, correct and incorrect, meaningful and meaningless, in which words can be related to things, processes and events. But they offer no guidance, in regard to the much more fundamental problem of the relationship of man in his psychophysical totality, on the one hand, and his two worlds, of data and of symbols, on the other.

In every region and at every period of history, the problem has been repeatedly solved by individual men and women. Even when they spoke or wrote, these individuals created no systems - for they knew that every system is a standing temptation to take symbols too seriously, to pay more attention to words than to the realities for which the words are supposed to stand. Their aim was never to offer ready-made explanations and panaceas; it was to induce people to diagnose and cure their own ills, to get them to go to the place where man's problem and its solution present themselves directly to experience.

全文不尽录了,其他思想家的东西不适合放在这版,等下有教徒要杀我。
我想对于彻底的去除符号系统是不可能的,符号和偶像之间的差别在哪里?我觉得耶稣的教导和警告只是在提醒众人莫把符号升级至偶像罢了,sekian terima kasih。

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 楼主| 发表于 17-1-2014 09:52 PM | 显示全部楼层
leoksting81 发表于 17-1-2014 12:00 AM
不好批评他人宗教。
本质上,各大宗教都有来由的。
一神教完全否认了其他神存在,

我没有批评东西。
在基督福音板块,所有基督徒都相信世界上只有一位真神,那就是耶和华上帝。
圣经也提到除了真神,还有其它的神,我们不叫他假神而是叫他邪神,这是基督徒的惯用语,你们入乡就要随俗。
不习惯的可以不要来,因为道不同不相为谋。
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 楼主| 发表于 17-1-2014 09:56 PM | 显示全部楼层
leoksting81 发表于 17-1-2014 12:02 AM
你是对的。
就像华人为何庆农历新年,为何不庆祝公历一样。

那是两回事,神有神的律法,用教会的传统来支配神的律法总觉得有点问题。
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 楼主| 发表于 17-1-2014 10:02 PM | 显示全部楼层
leoksting81 发表于 17-1-2014 12:14 AM
那可不一定,
天主教内的休会之多,
各种修行主义是很多的啦。

可能是我的境界太低吧,
你的“那可不一定”我摸不着头脑。
我说天主教是修道主义,像欧洲国家也可看到很多很多修院甚至苦修院。
天主教也是圣物崇拜主义,一切都以圣为先。
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 楼主| 发表于 17-1-2014 10:06 PM | 显示全部楼层
JowY 发表于 17-1-2014 09:12 AM
你讲什么 hardcore 啊
我只是说这位神父的想法很激进一下~

噢,原来hardcore是激进。误会了呵呵。
为配合我的年纪,我现在只看mature.

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