南传菩萨道

清池

回复 40# KhunKaew


    也是要知，佛陀在教声闻道和菩萨道的解脱和涅盘的定义，在这两道上都是不同的定义。
    菩萨道是以众生的得益为解脱和涅盘。（不是指个体为目标）

KhunKaew

回复  KhunKaew


    也是要知，佛陀在教声闻道和菩萨道的解脱和涅盘的定义，在这两道上都是不同的定义 ...
清池 发表于 27-12-2010 03:07 PM

佛陀只教导解脱之道。众生应以佛陀的教导为依归，以证阿罗汉果为目标。

sadhu,sadhu,sadhu。

清池

回复 42# KhunKaew

那样说，南传自古和古时的部派就没有菩萨道了，但这有和现实和藏理中的文证不付。
当今还有很多的南传学僧在修习菩萨道，不但在兰卡，缅甸，印尼，中国西部， 还有很多兰卡学僧留学习大乘在香港，台湾，美国 等
南传本部也承认他们的，也承认是本学派自古以来的道法， 菩萨道是以实习菩萨自居，在生死道上修证十波罗密善法度一切众生，以成证正等正觉的佛为修行的目标。你不信的话自己去问问南传本宗。

善载，善载

Theravadin bhikku and scholar Walpola Rahula (Sri Rahula Maha Thera) has stated that the bodhisattva ideal has traditionally been held to be higher than the state of a śrāvaka not only in Mahāyāna, but also in Theravāda Buddhism. He also quotes an inscription from the 10th Century king of Sri Lanka, Mahinda IV (956-972 CE) who had the words inscribed "none but the bodhisattvas would become kings of Sri Lanka", among other examples.
There is a wide-spread belief, particularly in the West, that the ideal of the Theravada, which they conveniently identify with Hinayana, is to become an Arahant while that of the Mahayana is to become a Bodhisattva and finally to attain the state of a Buddha. It must be categorically stated that this is incorrect. This idea was spread by some early Orientalists at a time when Buddhist studies were beginning in the West, and the others who followed them accepted it without taking the trouble to go into the problem by examining the texts and living traditions in Buddhist countries. But the fact is that both the Theravada and the Mahayana unanimously accept the Bodhisattva ideal as the highest.
—Walpola Rahula, Bodhisattva Ideal in Buddhism

A Treatise on the Paramis
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Acariya_Dhammapala_A_Treatise_on_the_Paramis.htm
“IN WHAT SENSE ARE THEY CALLED "PARAMIS"?

    The bodhisattvas, the great beings, are supreme (parama), since they are the highest of beings by reason of their distinguished qualities such as giving, virtue, etc. The paramis -- the activities of giving, etc. -- are their character or their conduct. Or else: he excels, thus he is supreme (parati ti paramo). The bodhisattva is the fulfiller and guardian of the noble qualities such as giving, etc.; that which belongs to the supreme -- the character or conduct of the one who is supreme (i.e. of the bodhisattva) -- is a parami, i.e. the activities of giving, etc. ”

From the Commentary to the Cariyapitaka

Acariya Dhammapala

Translated from the Pali by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
Buddhist Publication Society
Kandy - Sri Lanka

The Wheel Publication No. 409/411
ISBN 955-24-0146-1

Copyright © 1978 Bhikkhu Bodhi
Buddhist Publication Society
P.O. Box 61
54, Sangharaja Mawatha
Kandy, Sri Lanka

KhunKaew

回复  KhunKaew

那样说，南传自古和古时的部派就没有菩萨道了，但这有和现实和藏理中的文证不付。
当今 ...
清池 发表于 27-12-2010 04:03 PM

巴利文三藏里记录的菩萨道，指的是佛陀的前世，不是佛陀教导的解脱之道。佛陀也以＂菩萨＂称呼证得佛果前的自己。佛教徒被应该做的，就是努力修行，以期证得阿罗汉果，不再轮回于世间。当然，阁下要成佛，那也可以。那就得努力地修习波罗密，愿佛陀祝福你。

当今有越来越多的北传僧人前来学习上座部的教导，有的还穿上了袈裟，从此留在东南亚与锡兰的上座部寺庙精进求学。

Sadhu,sadhu...

Who Is A Bodhisatva?
In the Pali scriptures, the designation ‘Bodhisatva’ was given to
Prince Siddhartha before His Enlightenment and in His former
lives. The Buddha Himself used this term when speaking of His
life prior to Enlightenment. According to the Pali texts there is no
mention of Buddhahood being the only way to attain the final goal
of Nirvanic bliss. It was very rare for a disciple during the Buddha’s
time to forgo the opportunity to attain sainthood and instead declare
Bodhisatvahood as his aspiration. However, there are records that
some followers of the Buddha did aspire to become Bodhisatvas to
gain ‘Buddhahood’...

Although Theravada Buddhists respect Bodhisatvas, they do not
regard them as being in the position to enlighten or save others
before their own enlightenment. Bodhisatvas are, therefore, not
regarded as saviours in a spiritual sense. In order to gain their final
salvation, all beings must follow the method prescribed by the
Buddha and follow the example set by Him. They must also
personally eradicate their mental defilements and develop all the
great virtues: no one can give them salvation.

Ven. Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda - What Buddhist Believe

清池

回复 44# KhunKaew

如果是如你那样说，为和当今还有那样多南传僧人学菩萨道，发菩萨愿呢？

    It should be noted that in established Theravada tradition the paramis are not regarded as a discipline peculiar to candidates for Buddhahood alone but as practices which must be fulfilled by all aspirants to enlightenment and deliverance, whether as Buddhas paccekabuddhas, or disciples. What distinguishes the supreme bodhisattva from aspirants in the other two vehicles is the degree to which the paramis must be cultivated and the length of time they must be pursued. But the qualities themselves are universal requisites for deliverance, which all must fulfill to at least a minimal degree LO merit the fruits of the liberating path.

    The present translation has been based on the version in the Cariyapitaka Atthakatha, in the Burmese-script Sixth Council edition. This has been abridged in places in deference to the size limits of a Wheel booklet. For a translation of the complete text, the reader is directed to my translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and its commentaries, The Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1978, 1992), Part IV.
  

BHIKKHU BODHI

~

Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries
Translated by: Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
Publisher: Buddhist Publication Society  
http://www.pariyatti.org/Bookstore/productdetails.cfm?sku=404209

KhunKaew

回复  KhunKaew

如果是如你那样说，为和当今还有那样多南传僧人学菩萨道，发菩萨愿呢？

~
清池 发表于 27-12-2010 04:31 PM

不同的佛教传承，互相学习是应该的。上座部僧人学习大部佛教的菩萨道，大部僧人学习上座部佛教的解脱，也有的从此以证阿罗汉果为目标，这些都不是问题。

Sadhu, sadhu...

清池

但发菩萨愿就不一样了， 发菩萨愿就是舍四果阿罗汉-无余涅磐为修行目标，以成佛为修行目标


“Arahants, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas
I. Competing Buddhist Ideals
The arahant ideal and the bodhisattva ideal are often considered the respective guiding ideals of Theravāda Buddhism and Mahāyāna Buddhism. This assumption is not entirely correct,

for the Theravāda tradition has absorbed the bodhisattva ideal into its framework and thus recognizes the validity of both arahantship and Buddhahood as objects of aspiration.

It would therefore be more accurate to say that the arahant ideal and the bodhisattva ideal are the respective guiding ideals of Early Buddhism and Mahāyāna Buddhism

In my own view, both paths (or vehicles) – the arahant path and the bodhisattva path – can be seen as valid expressions of the Buddha’s teaching. However, they must both conform to certain formal criteria. In matters of principle, they must conform to such teachings as the four noble truths, the three characteristics, and dependent origination; and in matters of practice, they must embody wholesome ethics and follow the scheme of the threefold training in morality, concentration, and wisdom. Nevertheless, even when these criteria are fulfilled, we must further avoid any type of syncretism that leads to the denigration of the original teachings of the historical Buddha, regarding them as mere expedients or adaptations to the Indian religious climate of his age rendered irrelevant by teachings arisen at a later period. The kind of tolerance that is needed is one that respects the authenticity of Early Buddhism so far as we can determine its nature from the oldest historical records, yet can also recognize the capacity of Buddhism to undergo genuine historical transformations that bring to manifestation hidden potentials of the ancient teaching, transformations that enrich the tradition springing from the Buddha as its fountainhead.

When we adopt this approach, we can truly venerate those practitioners who work diligently to realize the final goal of the Dhamma here and now, to reach nirvāna, the extinction of suffering, by following the noble eightfold path to its very end. We can venerate those who glorify the teaching by showing that it truly leads to ultimate liberation, to the plunge into the unborn and unconditioned state, the deathless element, which the Buddha so often extolled, calling it the wonderful and marvelous, the peaceful purity, the unsurpassed liberation. Again, by taking this approach, we can also venerate those compassionate ones who vow to follow the route of the bodhisattva, and who make this vow as an act of supererogation, not because it is a necessary condition for their own true deliverance. We can revere and cherish their loving-kindness, their great compassion, their lofty aspirations, and their self-sacrificial service to the world. True Buddhism needs all three: Buddhas, arahants, and bodhisattvas. It needs Buddhas to discover and teach the path to liberation; it needs arahants to follow the path and confirm that the Dharma does indeed lead to liberation, adorning the teaching with examples of those who lead the purest holy life; it needs bodhisattvas to bring forth the resolve to perfect those qualities that will enable them at some point in the future, near or distant, to become Buddhas themselves and once again turn the unsurpassed Wheel of the Dharma. ”

Bhikkhu Bodhi
July 01, 2006
http://www.bodhimonastery.net

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha335.htm

真神弥赛亚

正确理解是未醒觉的众生，而且佛法并非学习菩萨（未醒觉众生）。
佛陀是提醒弟子应依据八正道解脱而非依据菩萨（未醒觉众生），所以开示本生经。

至于创价学会时空不对的相比。这可能创价孤弱寡闻，高傲愚昧的教理导致。
三藏十二经并非需要后期经典和论师支持，而是保持原貌就能协助众生修得世间解成就阿罗汉，或许那些天魔乘误解修成证果一定要成佛陀，其实阿罗汉就是觉者。所以众生一旦醒觉就是阿罗汉，没有必要，稻穗未成熟，拔苗翻种，这根本是浪费时间和多此一举，除非稻苗以坏。

清池

其实阿罗汉就是觉者。所以众生一旦醒觉就是阿罗汉，没有必要，稻穗未成熟，拔苗翻种，这根本是浪费时间和多此一举，除非稻苗以坏。

大乘观点，在十地菩萨就与阿罗汉同等了

真神弥赛亚

那是属于micchadhimokkha，其实根本没有大乘，那是论师的杰作。

KhunKaew

但发菩萨愿就不一样了， 发菩萨愿就是舍四果阿罗汉-无余涅磐为修行目标，以成佛为修行目标


“Arahants ...
清池 发表于 27-12-2010 04:50 PM

是的。舍弃菩萨愿，选择上座部佛教而努力证得阿罗汉果的大众部僧人也很多，或许比舍弃四果阿罗汉而发菩萨愿的僧人更多。这是个人意愿，只要遵守佛陀的教导就好。

Sadhu, sadhu...

KhunKaew

大乘观点，在十地菩萨就与阿罗汉同等了
清池 发表于 27-12-2010 05:07 PM

上座部的观点，菩萨只是凡人，是还没有解脱的凡人，所以根本不能和阿罗汉同等。

Sadhu, sadhu...

真神弥赛亚

回复  真神弥赛亚

阿撑。别以为你识撑就以为自己比明昆三藏持者大长老更伟大。
素还真 发表于 26-12-2010 05:21 PM

你去读完他所引用的三部经，看法又不同了，阿撑
看一篇文章，就以为懂得很清楚。

wusen

辟支菩萨（未来辟支佛）必须修习波罗蜜长达两阿僧祇与十万大劫。如果他们修习波罗蜜的时期少过两个阿僧祇与十万大劫，他们是不可能成为辟支佛的。就如三藐三菩萨的情形一般，期限未到时波罗蜜是不能圆满的，所以不能证得辟支菩提。

弟子菩萨（声闻菩萨）有三种，即：一、未来上首弟子（aggasavaka），每一尊佛都有两位上首弟子，就如舍利弗尊者与目犍连尊者一般；二、未来大弟子（mahasavaka），就如释迦牟尼佛时的八十大弟子一般；三、未来普通弟子（pakatisavaka），除了上述以外的阿罗汉。因此一共有三种未来弟子。

在这三者之中，未来上首弟子必须修习波罗蜜长达一阿僧祇与十万大劫；未来大弟子则须修习十万大劫；关于未来普通弟子的期限，经典里并没有提到。无论如何，批注《大本经》[26]的「宿住论」之注疏与疏钞提到大弟子可以看到自己的过去世长达十万大劫，而普通弟子的能力则少过此数。由于他们在每一生皆有修习波罗蜜，从这一点推测，未来普通弟子修习波罗蜜的期限是不会超过十万大劫的。因此，他们的期限是不定的，它可能是一百或一千大劫等。根据一些论师的看法，它可能只是一或两世而已，就有如青蛙的故事[27]中所述一般。

佛陀

如前所述，三类菩萨（未来佛）在各自的期限里圆满了诸波罗蜜之后，即会无师自通地证得彻知四圣谛的四道智（maggabana），以及能知一切事的一切知智（Sabbabbutabana）。他们同时也获得了无限（ananta）与无量（aparimeyya）的佛之特质。这些特质是真的太多了，若一尊佛只是颂扬另一尊佛的素质而不谈及其它事，当一个大劫结束后，这些素质还没能说完。已证得这种菩提，在三界中没有相等的众生之圣人被称为一切知佛或正等正觉者（三藐三菩陀，Sammasambuddha）。

当在两阿僧祇与十万大劫的期限里圆满了诸波罗蜜之后，辟支菩萨即能无师自通地证得彻知四圣谛的四道智。但是他却不能证得一切知智和十力智等。这类圣人被称为辟支佛。

三类未来弟子在各自的期限圆满了诸波罗蜜之后，即会依靠一位导师（即佛陀）之助而证得彻知四圣谛的四道智。证得弟子菩提的圣人被称为弟子，他们是上首弟子、大弟子或普通弟子。

佛陀的任务

在这三类觉者之中（即一切知佛、辟支佛与弟子），一切知佛被称为济渡者（tarayitu）；他是至上者，在自渡后再渡他人脱离娑婆苦海（即生死轮回）。辟支佛在佛陀与其佛法住世时是不会出现的，他们只出现在两尊佛住世之间无佛的时期。佛陀无师自通地觉悟四圣谛及有能力教导他人觉悟它。辟支佛也是无师自通地觉悟了四圣谛，却无论如何都没有能力教导与使他人觉悟。在亲自觉悟了道、果与涅盘之后，他无法解说这些证悟的体验，因为他没有掌握对于这些出世间法的恰当文字。因此，辟支佛对四圣谛的智慧（dhammabhisamaya，法现观）被论师们譬喻为哑巴的梦或文盲农夫无法以文字来形容的生活体验。因此辟支佛已自渡，然而却不能渡他。

辟支佛可以为那些出家为比丘的人剃度，他们也可以教人「等正行仪学」（abhisamacarika），说道：「你应该如此平静地向前走、向后退、看、说等」。但是却不能教人如何分别名色（nama-rupa）以及观照它们的三相（三法印：即无常、苦和无我）等等，以使他人觉悟道与果。

弟子被称为受渡者（tarita），因为他们是受到佛陀之助与解救而得越渡娑婆苦海的。当乌婆帝沙（Upatissa，后来被称为Sariputta，舍利弗）听到阿说示尊者（Assaji）说：“Ye dhamma hetuppabhava tesam hetum tathagato.”──「由因而生之诸法，世尊已说出它们之因。」，他即证得了须陀洹道果。

从这一点，有人可能会以为弟子可以同时是受渡者（tarita）与济渡者（tarayitu）。但是弟子的教法是源自佛陀，而不是自己的。他不能不借助佛陀的教法去弘法。因此弟子被称为受渡者，而不是济渡者，因为他们是不可能无师自通地觉悟四圣谛，而是只有在佛陀之助力下才能证得道与果。

因此，辟支佛是自渡者，弟子是受渡者。自从他们证得阿罗汉道与果后，他们时常进入果定（phalasamapatti）和灭尽定（nirodhasamapatti），以体验寂静之乐，而不是时常致力于为众生带来利益。

在另一方面，佛陀是不会只停留在为自己带来快乐而已。事实上，在他圆满波罗蜜的时候，他已下定决心：「在我明了四圣谛后，我将使他人同样地明了它。」等等。因此，他日以继夜地执行佛陀的五项任务。

由于必须执行这五项任务，佛只在用餐过后休息一阵子。晚上时，只用后夜的三分之一时间来休息。其它的时间他都用来执行任务。

只有佛陀才有「独特与至上的精进力」（payatta），这也就是佛陀的多种成就之一；所以只有佛陀才能执行这些任务。执行这些任务并不是在辟支佛与弟子的能力范围之内。

省思佛陀的稀有出世

深入地省思菩萨与佛陀的四方面，即：菩萨、菩萨的任务、佛陀、佛陀的任务，能够让我们醒悟到佛陀的出世是一个非常稀有的现象。

wusen: 辟支佛既然能够自己觉悟了四圣谛，为何不能教导他人觉悟呢？之前说到他累计婆罗密的时间不足，未能掌握出世间法的语言。

既然已经成就辟之佛，他如何继续累计婆罗密来完成佛果呢？一位菩萨的修行过程是否会成为了辟之佛呢？

个人认为，菩萨在修行成佛的过程，也许会出现在很多不同的环境，如果遇到有佛法的时代，他会因为听闻佛法而成就阿罗汉，成就阿罗汉之后，他依然继续累积婆罗密。

所以，阿罗汉果和婆罗密属于互不相干的两件事。

如果菩萨投生在没有佛法住世的世界，他不能成就阿罗汉果位，但是，他依然不断累积婆罗密。

直到菩萨累积了相当的婆罗密之后，他也许会在没有佛法的世界成就辟之佛，在这种情形，由于当时没有佛法住世，而这位辟之佛也没办法教导其他弟子成就解脱道，因为他还没掌握。然而，他依然继续他的成佛道路。

所以，我猜测菩萨在成佛的过程，如果已经成就了辟之佛果位，那么他也许偶尔是辟之佛或者是阿罗汉，只是看当时是否有佛法住世。

真神弥赛亚

wusen: 辟支佛既然能够自己觉悟了四圣谛，为何不能教导他人觉悟呢？之前说到他累计婆罗密的时间不足，未能掌 ...
wusen 发表于 27-12-2010 07:18 PM

若把它看成是一个因缘，那么你的看法又是如何？

清池

回复 52# KhunKaew


  

上座部的观点，菩萨只是凡人，

     阿罗汉能超越弥勒菩萨吗？

     现实来对比， 北传的大德和南传的大德相比， 无论是在德行，智慧，修行 等 都可不相上下

真神弥赛亚

依据个人理解，南传菩萨道，和大乘菩萨道很大差异。


根据此篇文章中的南传菩萨道。
要成为菩萨，首先 ...
山野草夫 发表于 27-12-2010 12:05 PM

那是菩提乘，不是菩萨道。

清池

回复 54# wusen

  

所以，我猜测菩萨在成佛的过程，如果已经成就了辟之佛果位，那么他也许偶尔是辟之佛或者是阿罗汉，只是看当时是否有佛法住世。

这只是各学派用的名次不一样而已， 在南传称阿罗汉或辟之佛，在北传承十地菩萨。

真神弥赛亚

日莲天魔能超越弥勒吗？

清池

回复 57# 真神弥赛亚

    那是菩提乘，不是菩萨道

你也被明相绑住， 南传称大菩提， 北传称菩萨